• November 21, 2024, 09:10:21 AM
• Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
News: Registration on the forum through the email only to olgatangemann@gmail.com The English edition of the book "Personality Type and Art" is available at Cambridge Scholars Publishing website. The German edition of the book "Personlichkeitstyp und Kunst" is available to buy on Amazon.de in paperback for 29.99 and online options for 9.99

Author Topic: Sali  (Read 13525 times)

Offline Ольга

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2495
  • Karma: 16
  • Ассоциативная модель
    • View Profile
    • Ассоциативная соционика
Sali
« on: October 22, 2014, 08:43:27 AM »
This is the topic for Sali. :)
Журнал "Соционика": https://www.facebook.com/groups/543577009011267/

Offline Sali

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 28
  • Karma: 3
    • View Profile
Re: Sali
« Reply #1 on: October 22, 2014, 09:56:53 AM »
<iframe src="https://www.tumblr.com/video/pinkmanhattan/100280343233/500" id="tumblr_video_iframe_100280343233" class="tumblr_video_iframe" width="500" height="409" style="display:block;background-color:transparent;overflow:hidden;" allowTransparency="true" frameborder="0" scrolling="no" webkitAllowFullScreen mozallowfullscreen allowFullScreen></iframe>

(Sorry if I can't use html here!  Please follow the link to see my video.)

Hello, Olga, and thank you for your warm welcome.   Hello, all.  I'm here to find my Socionics type.  Olga has kindly assessed my type to LII, but because I had doubts that I could be an EII, she has invited me here so perhaps tou can join in helping to type me. 

In answer to Olga's Questionnaire, I preferred the Intuitive questions the best ("Could you waste your time?" was my favorite, philosophical sort of question), followed by Sensing ("Which accessories...make it look better?"), then Ethical (Why does religion help one person but not another?", which is another philosophical question in the context of an ethical topic), and lastly, the Logical.  However, if the logical questions were connected to my personal interests such as technical things about music, I would probably rank these questions higher, if not the highest.

As for the 8 functions, I like Ne ("What's it all about?"--I enjoy seeing the big picture and summarizing it, or finding the point--this is also what gets me in trouble when I put words in people's mouths as I hear the way I hear things), also Ni ("When is the right time?"--also open-ended and philosophical), Se ("How will it benefit me?", "Will it improve my appearance?", although "How will it improve my appearance" would be a better question for me), Te ("In what sequence?"--I much prefer figuring out or deciding the order rather than following), Si ("Is it aesthetical?"--Again, I prefer to think about whether something is aesthetical or not based on not only aesthetic rules but my personal taste).  What's left?  Fi, Fe and Ti, all of which I use when necessary, but these weren't my favorite questions of the bunch to deal with on a regular basis.  However, as a person, I am always aware of fair and respectful treatment of human beings, and of extinguishing stereotypes that can limit potential.  I am often told I am an analytical person, which I guess is a Ti function.  I present myself warmly to people, but I don't have unlimited patience for everyone, mostly just the closest people in my life for whom I always make time and prioritize.

My interests and hobbies are music (composing, performing, listening), surfing the net and reading stuff like Wikipedia, making things like perfume which begin with concepts and can be analyzed into structural components (notes and olfactory classifications),  all kinds of art from drawings to dance. 

Stronger and weaker qualities: Generally good at communicating my thoughts, bad at having very good tact and people skills, though I try.  Bad sense of direction but can read maps.  Good at making warm human connections, bad at keeping up with most trends because I live inside my own head so much of the time.  Yet somehow, the trends sometimes find me, if that makes sense.  I might not follow but sometimes I can feel the gist of an overall trend so I don't dress totally out of place.

Favourite subjects at school: Art and music

Professional interests and ambitions: To continue composing music and growing as a musician

What you close ones appreciate in you: I am honest about things and opinions, so I think people come to me for ideas or constructive criticism, but hopefully also for encouragement when they show me things they do and want me to say they do them well.  I also teach, although my student load is very small.  Sometimes, I can be funny, if not totally goofy and entertaining.

What do they criticize in you: Arrogance, vanity, inflexibility, stubbornness, the list goes on.

Thank you for your time!  I look forward to reading your comments.

« Last Edit: October 22, 2014, 10:03:14 AM by Sali »

Offline Ольга

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2495
  • Karma: 16
  • Ассоциативная модель
    • View Profile
    • Ассоциативная соционика
Re: Sali
« Reply #2 on: October 23, 2014, 09:06:48 AM »
Sali, thank you for your story about yourself.  Because you are artistic person I can think that your perception may be stronger than judgement and then I would consider you as not a rational introvert. You prefer irrational functions  like Ni and Si and Ne  and don't like questions about Fi, Ti and Fe. So we shall look at your now from all different perspectives. However, it will only work  if we see something together - that something will make sense for you and me together. If you will carry on doubt about things I will not feel confident because I rely on your feedback.

Are you a dreamer? Is it natural for you to doubt? Have you done true predictions in the past? Are you a suspicious person?

Журнал "Соционика": https://www.facebook.com/groups/543577009011267/

Offline Ольга

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2495
  • Karma: 16
  • Ассоциативная модель
    • View Profile
    • Ассоциативная соционика
Журнал "Соционика": https://www.facebook.com/groups/543577009011267/

Offline Sali

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 28
  • Karma: 3
    • View Profile
Re: Sali
« Reply #4 on: October 27, 2014, 03:14:59 AM »
Thank you, Olga, for your comments and time.  I believe I can be doubtful to a healthy degree, not so much by nature as environment and experience.  Also, if logically I cannot fully understand how answers are arrived at.  For instance, whether a Socionics type LII correlates to an MBTI INTJ or INTP is unclear theoretically, and therefore my doubts about being either type persists.  These days, I think about how well you perceive my Ti, and I think EII is out of the question if their Ti is supposedly weak.

When I took the official MBTI (CAPT), I self-assessed in the end as INTJ but my practitioner thought I was INTP.  On the written portion, I got INFP.  (Edited to add) The first time I took an online MBTI, I came up INFJ, and subsequently many times, thus I always thought beingINFJ-INTJ had the highest possibilities.

I am a dreamer in the sense that I followed my dream of pursuing the arts and lived my life doing what I love.  I still live according to dreams I hold in my heart, and always want a dream to wake up to and follow each day.    Is dreaming of a life of music dreamy enough for most?  I would think it takes dreams and a certain fearlessness of risk to make them a reality.

Back to doubts and suspicions: I have skepticism but I'm not a complete cynic, either.  I like to be pragmatic if I can.  When I was growing up, I took more risks, but now I take less, or maybe more calculated risks with self-preservation and cautiousness becoming more important.  But I would still take chances if it's for the pursuit of happiness.

As for being future-seeing, I can grasp consequences to actions very quickly, in a flash sometimes, where the worst case scenarios do come to mind.  I consider it a blessing, others see it sometimes as being too cautious, except when my vision is correct.  I think many women probably possess the same ability to predict consequence out of being protective.

I hope I'm not being a headache to you because of my doubts.  I will follow up with music and images.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2014, 06:13:13 AM by Sali »

Offline Sali

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 28
  • Karma: 3
    • View Profile
« Last Edit: November 04, 2014, 02:49:51 PM by Ольга »

Offline Ольга

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2495
  • Karma: 16
  • Ассоциативная модель
    • View Profile
    • Ассоциативная соционика
Re: Sali
« Reply #6 on: October 27, 2014, 09:29:14 AM »
Sali,  nothing to worry as I like to talk to people about their types. We need to talk to clear some issues or at least to try to understand.

The difference between MBTI and socionics exist for introverts only and it stems from a wrong conclusion from the author of MBTI model. She concluded that in introverts the second function is more visible when they express themselves outwardly, when they socialise with the others.
Why did she (author) think this way? Her line of thought was very simple. When the people interact with the other people they are in their extraverted state and hence what you see is what you get as a stronger function. This must be extraverted function because introverted function is something which is hidden inside of the psyche.

According to her, in extraverts is stronger the first function which is always extraverted and in introverts will be second function stronger presented. In irrational introverts the second function is extraverted and rational for ILI it is Te in MBTI and Te in Socionics. If your expert sensed stronger your logic she could easily assign you to the type INTP.

If socionics expert will sense stronger your logics you would be assign the type INTJ because we do not have a presumption that in introverts second function is stronger expressed.

This presumption blurs the type  boundaries of the attribute rational - irrational. If you are sure that in terms of Jung's functions you are an intuitive and logical person all you need is to decide whether you are J or P. You work in the field of art which automatically suggest that P is very strong and it would be easy to suggest that you are an ILI- INTP. But we need to be sure and consider the criteria for being rational or irrational. This is a question number one.

There is a number of criteria which we can consider to decide it. For example, the tidiness in the house is not a strong criteria. Each attribute has got polar degrees: very tidy - in between - very messy. I have description of J and P for you to consider where you stand:

 Rationality – irrationality

Irrational types – they quite easily adapt to changes in circumstances, are easy-going, usually act in spontaneous manner or arrange things at the last moment. Irrational type do plan as well but they can not stick to the plan. This type has the ability to grasp sudden change in situation and flexibly alter it to their needs. Irrationals may take part in several activities at once and do not complete them. Tend to work according to the mood. If the emotional state corresponds to the task, they can do the job in a few days.

Rational type – they prefer to plan their actions and tend to stick to their short and long term plans. Rational type does not admire sudden change because he finds it difficult to act appropriate to the plan in new circumstances. This type does not like to rush and prefer to prepare for the upcoming events in advance. Rationals do not like to change their decisions and plans so often. They tend to deliver the results for activities they choose, and do not start a new one, until they finish the previous one. This type is not disposed to engage in several projects at once. His work is typically well organized in time and sequent instances. Rational type’s performance is almost regardless of the mood.


Журнал "Соционика": https://www.facebook.com/groups/543577009011267/

Offline Ольга

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2495
  • Karma: 16
  • Ассоциативная модель
    • View Profile
    • Ассоциативная соционика
Re: Sali
« Reply #7 on: October 27, 2014, 09:37:14 AM »
 It is also possible to consider J or P from the point of the leading functions. From your answer I got an impression that dreams for you are simply realistic goals ahead  like a lighthouse. Then it is not what we understand by leading Ni. At this moment it would be good if you could understand the difference between Ni and Ti as programme functions and relate their descriptions to yourself.
This is the good article, you can read it in full or just look at the Ni and Ti profiles first. And Ni and Ne second.

http://socionics4you.com/%d0%b0%d1%81%d0%bf%d0%b5%d0%ba%d1%82%d1%8b-%d0%b8%d0%bd%d1%84%d0%be%d1%80%d0%bc%d0%b0%d1%86%d0%b8%d0%b8/?lang=en
« Last Edit: October 27, 2014, 09:44:41 AM by Ольга »
Журнал "Соционика": https://www.facebook.com/groups/543577009011267/

Offline Ольга

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2495
  • Karma: 16
  • Ассоциативная модель
    • View Profile
    • Ассоциативная соционика
Re: Sali
« Reply #8 on: October 27, 2014, 09:45:29 AM »
Журнал "Соционика": https://www.facebook.com/groups/543577009011267/

Offline Ольга

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2495
  • Karma: 16
  • Ассоциативная модель
    • View Profile
    • Ассоциативная соционика
Re: Sali
« Reply #9 on: October 27, 2014, 09:57:31 AM »
 Sali, I hope you will post also the music which you strongly dislike and pictures as well?
When you post music you click before on the u-tube on the button Share, you will get a different link to the song - a short one like this -----http://youtu.be/TiRa_DwalQc------

 You just post the short link and the video automatically appears on the page.
When you post pictures you  take a website link and paste it into the brackets  - click on the symbol of Madonna by Da Vinchi - the second symbol on your left top.

If you want to post it from you PC you need to click on the link above your post in Russian - Добавить картинку в сообщение. С компьютера. Обзор.  Загрузить Which means in English: Add a picture - From computer- search - download.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2014, 10:02:06 AM by Ольга »
Журнал "Соционика": https://www.facebook.com/groups/543577009011267/

Offline Sali

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 28
  • Karma: 3
    • View Profile
Re: Sali
« Reply #10 on: October 27, 2014, 10:59:21 AM »
Thank you for your detailed explanation of the Introverts' J/P split.  I will read the links you posted and see if I can understand the Ti/Ni functions better.  If two experts including you sensed logic in me, I have little doubt I'm an INTx.  I also need to learn the difference between logical and rational types.  In the meantime, here are some links to music I dislike:

Hands up (Give Me Your Heart)
http://youtu.be/Mfp0X1aSjk0
Electric slide
http://youtu.be/QmMQfTJ3gYk
The B-52's - "Rock Lobster" (Official Music Video)
http://youtu.be/n4QSYx4wVQg

I'll see if I can fix the links to the songs I like.  I will follow up with images.

« Last Edit: November 04, 2014, 02:56:14 PM by Ольга »

Offline Sali

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 28
  • Karma: 3
    • View Profile
Re: Sali
« Reply #11 on: October 27, 2014, 11:40:05 AM »
Images I like:





I have more that I like at this link at Socionics International on Facebook:
https://m.facebook.com/groups/339434052825361?view=permalink&id=534085936693504


In case you don't see the images:
Image 1 http://pinkmanhattan.blogspot.com/2014/10/glass-city-by-heinz-hajek-halke.html
Image 2 http://pinkmanhattan.blogspot.com/2014/10/deco-futurism.html


I don't like most of these images, especially the realism ones:
http://madefromhistory.com/world-war-one/painting/

Or these http://www.tuttartpitturasculturapoesiamusica.com/2010/11/boris-indrikov.html

You can add to the dislike list much of Victorian art, as well done as many of them are http://homeliving.blogspot.com/2011/07/feminine-dress-portrayed-by-victorian.html
« Last Edit: October 27, 2014, 12:14:25 PM by Sali »

Offline Sali

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 28
  • Karma: 3
    • View Profile
Re: Sali
« Reply #12 on: October 27, 2014, 04:14:03 PM »
Olga, I am still confused about the J/P split in MBTI Introverts and the Socionics equivalent.  An MBTI INTP is Ti-Ne.  An MBTI INTJ is Ni-Te.  My practitioner would have assessed that my Ne was the strongest if she thought I was an INTP, no?

I found this explanation of the difference between an MBTI INTP vs INTJ: http://thatintp.tumblr.com/post/25124245977/ni-te-vs-ti-ne-intj-vs-intp

Another thought came to mind today, that the people who see me as a Thinker are Feelers, and the ones who see me as a Feeler are Thinkers.  The same could be said for Introverts seeing me as an Extravert.  Sometimes I wonder how relative the types are to the people assessing the types, as objectively as the assessments are done.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2014, 04:33:22 PM by Sali »

Offline Ольга

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2495
  • Karma: 16
  • Ассоциативная модель
    • View Profile
    • Ассоциативная соционика
Re: Sali
« Reply #13 on: October 27, 2014, 09:39:19 PM »
Sali, what they write is a nonsense. They associate the deduction with J and induction with P - it is not exactly how we understand what is J and P. J - means understanding the world by fixed judgement and perception is more flexible and does not need words.  If you do not  hold onto your understanding of things you are stronger in yor perception. If you hold to what you know about the world you always compare with what you know and how it fits to you understanding. Hence your perception is weaker.
There is a lot to it - to the difference between J and P. P- types are more easier adjust themselves to the situation and environment while J- types want the world to fit to their understanding of it. The world is how I see it understand it. if the world does not fit I need to change my understanding of the world. It takes a while usually to change your views and values. We live by vies and values and base our life around it.
If we don't understand something that bad - this means danger and instability. You cannot leave with the world all the time changing and shaking so that it reminds a chaos, can you?
Журнал "Соционика": https://www.facebook.com/groups/543577009011267/

Offline Ольга

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2495
  • Karma: 16
  • Ассоциативная модель
    • View Profile
    • Ассоциативная соционика
Re: Sali
« Reply #14 on: October 27, 2014, 09:58:40 PM »
As regards to induction and deduction - we all use both reasoning. The questims -  types who like to question people as if they need always feedback from others may use more inductive reasoning and declatims - who can talk as if they talk to themselves - they may use more deductive reasoning. So it is just different interpretation, dont' take it serious.
 I have a good link to the MBTI models for all 16 types after the text in Russian:
http://www.typelogic.ru/mbti/

Ok, in MBTI they use functions of ILI - Balsac Ni+ Te and call it INTJ because of the second function Te being a rational one and stronger then Ni.
Basically, we can say that LII in socionics is Balsac with the emphasis on the logics - logical Balsac is LII. And Intutive LII is in MBTI Balzac (ILI).

If your practitioner see you as strong Ne, then it is the same like strong Ni because in MBTI there is no such thing as a strong Ni, right? As a logical introvert you can only have either strong Te or strong Ne.
Your practitioner could only compare Te with Ne and came to the conclusion that Ne is stronger. I don't know if she considered J and P separately from the model, did she?
Or do you think she based her conclusion heavily on MBTI model?

The next thing we need to compare the description of Te and Ne as well as Ti and Ni in MBTI and socionics in order to understand the difference between MBTI and socionics.
In socionics we compare the leading functions Ti and Ni which relate to J and P.
Журнал "Соционика": https://www.facebook.com/groups/543577009011267/