Sali

[Ольга]

"Sometimes I wonder how relative the types are to the people assessing the types, as objectively as the assessments are done".

The fact is that we use our subjective view can be as fortunate and unfortunate - we cannot exclude it.  There is no 100% confidence but there is a common sense logic. We base our opinion on analysis and logic. Then we say at this point in time this is the best conclusion. It should be thought and felt right. The deeper is your knowledge the more clear you can see.

[Sali]

Thank you very much for examining my point re: MBTI types and their functions not aligning with Socionics types.  So if an LII is an MBTI INTP, it means both experts in each their respective fields of typology saw me as the same type.  I am content with that, except your question regarding how my MBTI practitioner arrived at my type has me questioning whether the models even match between the two systems.  I believe my practitioner, an MBTI ENFP, both broke down the J/P function separately and also assessed me holistically by looking at the model.  In fact she told me to decide by reading the descriptions of the models in the end, which brought me to an INTJ conclusion.  However, if the MBTI INTJ Ni-Te sounds more like the Socionics LII by overall description, your original theory would be correct, that the types between systems don't change.  Could you please see if the models are the same?  Are the models more reliable than the functions for best fit typing?   Very interesting that an an MBTI INTJ Ni-Te can have a model description that corresponds to LII--is it possible?

[Sali]

I don't know if others have as difficult a time as I do seeing myself objectively, but I really am trying.  I still can't tell if I'm more easy-going or not, because in some ways, I like to shape my world according to how I see or want it, and feel I can make an impact, hopefully make it better than before I left it.  However, I need freedom amd flexibility to be truly happy and in my creative element.  I tend to like things like modern art, from abstract expressionism to conceptual, and complex forms of jazz which rely heavily on improvisation and experimentation.  I can be impulsive at times, but orderly, systematic and sequential in my thought processes, too.  I prefer to prepare things in advance if I can, but often   see myself just winging it.  I have always worked regardless of my mood because you have to, but how I like to wprk is perhaps more about impulse than emotion (which I thought was an Ethics function); when I'm emotionally charged or impacted, I like to create while I still feel caught up in that world.

Sorry for so many tangents (maybe I am very Ne), but here's spmething else confusing about J/P: If I seek closure by seeking the truth, is that a J function?  INTPs seek truth and problem-solving too, don't they?

[Ольга]

 I did not compare the descriptions of INTP in MBTI and with LII in socionics but I assume that everything is possible. They can have an image of LII which they coded with the functions of Ni and Te. It depends how they interpret the functions as well.
Generally the J types need closure because they don't like open end situation. If you can easy adjust yourself you will want freedom and open end so that you have space and time to move. If you are not easy and quick ready for a change then you need a more stable environment and more certainty on where you stand.

Is it easy for you to break the relationship and not matter how you feel - do not look back? This is a very common among ILIs.
Or may be you are the person who is ready to take on guilt just to keep the partner happy and to stay in the relationship? When it is actually not your fault.

[Sali]

To generalize, I believe I'm the kind of person who does whatever I can to resolve issues arising in the relationship until I see no hope of resolution, or lose interest (usually as a result of not being able to resolve an issue).  At that point, a clean break is possible, and I never go back once I decide it's really over.  I can be as patient with people as I am demanding; I can be hard to please because I don't let anything go, and expect things to always make sense.  I feel I am sensitive and conscientious of the other's needs, whether emotional or mental, and want the same in return.  I also realize a deeply sensitive, conscientious man is hard to find, though not impossible.

Re: Guilt--I can be guilted into staying longer than I need to, but it won't work forever.  I can also be guilted into leaving, if I feel the person could do better without me.

Re: J/P--Honestly, I want closure for a sense of stability, but freedom for the control, to do things at my pace and will.

[Ольга]

To generalize, I believe I'm the kind of person who does whatever I can to resolve issues arising in the relationship until I see no hope of resolution, or lose interest (usually as a result of not being able to resolve an issue).  At that point, a clean break is possible, and I never go back once I decide it's really over.  I can be as patient with people as I am demanding; I can be hard to please because I don't let anything go, and expect things to always make sense.

Sali, if you don't let anything go that means you are for control of the situation. That means you are not happy to leave it as it is and got with the flow. That means you need stability and control over your environment otherwise you will not feel comfortable. It would suite well the vulnerable Se - extra attention to your territory and to all what belongs to you. If you need always to understand things - that means J level because on the P level it does not necessarily needs to be verbalised or even understood.
As you see I am not saying that this is just logic but rationality.

  I feel I am sensitive and conscientious of the other's needs, whether emotional or mental, and want the same in return.  I also realize a deeply sensitive, conscientious man is hard to find, though not impossible.

Re: Guilt--I can be guilted into staying longer than I need to, but it won't work forever.  I can also be guilted into leaving, if I feel the person could do better without me.

Re: J/P--Honestly, I want closure for a sense of stability, but freedom for the control, to do things at my pace and will.

If you consider all these things you must have Ti and Fi in your mental block - you must be Superego type. It is all relates to Ti+ Fi. 
All introverts need space to do things at their own pace and will. But not many can work under pressure. NT types prefer to work free and don't like any pressure as such.

If you would be an ethical type you could easily say sorry in the situation even if you have got nothing to be blamed for just for the sake of peace and quiet. YOU could easie to say or do something which has not got any sense just to keep somebody happy. In this case there would be not so much need for control and you could let go no just anything but a lot and would not feel guilty as such.

If you remember any sort of story which you found not nice or which you did not know how to resolve  or where you were unsure and needed advice - try to remember it. This could lead us to your weak function. Do you believe that you are always right? Do you trust your mind or your heart more? did you do anything which would go against your mind and would feel sorry after that?
It is also important when you try to understand the action of somebody what information you search to make a conclusion or decision? Ideally you would give me a concrete example from you life experience.

[Sali]

Olga, I am still unclear about the difference between logic and rationality, but I think your assessment of me being a J type because of my need for control is a pretty good one.  Still, I am unsure because I can be immune to guilt trips as well, and when the need arises, I can go with the flow quite easily and adapt.  That's how I worked in music, TV and radio, especially if it had to be done live, which was nerve-wracking but got done without going into panic mode.  As a lifelong performer, I can have grace under pressure.

It's absolutely fascinating and surprising what you said about Ethical types not feeling guilty, nor in need of being honest about their feelings, because they need only to people please.  That drives me up the wall about people; does such behavior not constitute as lying?  The only realm I accept not being honest is for the sake of keeping romantic feelings alive--no, we don't answer questions that play on each other's vulnerabilities, but protect each other's feelings if we love each other, out of kindness and mercy, good manners and all that.  But that's not the same thing as not resolving issues that arise in the relationship.  I guess I'm selective about when it's important and when it's not.

I'm not even sure I'm really an Introvert, because no one in my life has ever thought I was one, although I have been told once, "You're so quiet!" by one of the actors I worked with in a voice over session.  The actors were constantly joking and telling stories, and I was enjoying their company but also wanted just to get the work done efficiently without wasting too much time.  I suppose I am slightly dull and boring in the eyes of bubblier people, though I can surprise people with one-liners out of the blue, and also lend warmth to a situation if need be.

I had some things stolen from my house once by a babysitter.  It was almost impossible to get this person to confess in front of the parents; not even the threat of involving the police would do it, but I relayed the importance of the stolen goods in my family down memory lane, and got this babysitter crying and confessing, later returning the things.  I believed this person understood my concern wasn't just for my things and justice but  to reach this person's heart through mine.  I think I am ruled by both heart and mind, but my heart wins out in the end.

I am uncomfortable with the notion of the mind and heart being separate.  My feelings are connected to the mind.  I suppose my mind is at the mercy of my heart if I also can't hide my feelings well.

[Sali]

Olga, how can you tell someone is an Intuitive based either on function analysis or visual identification?  I'm quite certain I'm Intuitive because most people think I come from left field, and 99.9% of the time, I type as one.

[Ольга]

Olga, how can you tell someone is an Intuitive based either on function analysis or visual identification?  I'm quite certain I'm Intuitive because most people think I come from left field, and 99.9% of the time, I type as one.

How can we understand anything about the personality type - through your verbal self- assessment. I don't know you as such and in my eyes you could be any type but I rely on your feedback heavily. Tests results , if they are consistent plus analysis of non-verbal preferences. I am not thinking the clients lie on purpose or try to obscure their self- description. I try to make sense of how you see yourself and how you write about yourself based on the knowledge about the types and models.  It is all approximate.
At the moment we see that you are more likely to be a IJ type (Superego - type) and both types LII and EII coming very close. We assume that logic may be leading due to the hard core principles and control seeking. The line is very thin. I am trying to help you to see the difference between functions and types so that you could make a decision. If you would carry on doubting that means you are in need of your own personal experience and interaction with LII and EII.
I still need to have a look at your preferences once again.

[Ольга]

Olga, I am still unclear about the difference between logic and rationality, but I think your assessment of me being a J type because of my need for control is a pretty good one. 

Rational people like closure and like things to be in order. Simple things can show a lot. Like the picture on the wall is hanging not right, the curtain is hanging wrong, the food rest overs are left in the lunge and etc. J- people try to prepare themselves bit by bit planning their routine. The mood does not affect them because they know the word "you have to".
Logic means being categorical and stick to your guns, judging by yes or no and white and black because this is easier to understand and to judge based on logics "if - then". this is how the mind works by being objective.

It's absolutely fascinating and surprising what you said about Ethical types not feeling guilty, nor in need of being honest about their feelings, because they need only to people please.  That drives me up the wall about people; does such behavior not constitute as lying?

 It is  lying and it is not lying at the same time. Lie is something bad but some lies are good. We cannot live by strict rules and principles. We need to have space to move around and do what we want to do without upsetting people. There are shades like grey which allow as to be good and bad at the same time.   

 

The only realm I accept not being honest is for the sake of keeping romantic feelings alive--no, we don't answer questions that play on each other's vulnerabilities, but protect each other's feelings if we love each other, out of kindness and mercy, good manners and all that.  But that's not the same thing as not resolving issues that arise in the relationship.  I guess I'm selective about when it's important and when it's not.

You take into account that people are not perfect and then you have to tolerate them being bad at times. You forgive them for their imperfections because no one is perfect. It is up to the person what and how much he can tolerate in the relationships. Some people don't mind their partners to cheat and etc and some do.

I'm not even sure I'm really an Introvert, because no one in my life has ever thought I was one, although I have been told once, "You're so quiet!" by one of the actors I worked with in a voice over session.  The actors were constantly joking and telling stories, and I was enjoying their company but also wanted just to get the work done efficiently without wasting too much time.  I suppose I am slightly dull and boring in the eyes of bubblier people, though I can surprise people with one-liners out of the blue, and also lend warmth to a situation if need be.

There is no clear cut attributes - it is a degree that we are looking at. Some people more or less sociable. If generally you fit to introverted profile more - this is good enough at the moment.

I had some things stolen from my house once by a babysitter.  It was almost impossible to get this person to confess in front of the parents; not even the threat of involving the police would do it, but I relayed the importance of the stolen goods in my family down memory lane, and got this babysitter crying and confessing, later returning the things.  I believed this person understood my concern wasn't just for my things and justice but  to reach this person's heart through mine.  I think I am ruled by both heart and mind, but my heart wins out in the end.

So, this was a difficult situation and you managed  to achieve what you wanted. Have you been in a silly situations where you could not keep the face right and did something inadequate?

I am uncomfortable with the notion of the mind and heart being separate.  My feelings are connected to the mind.  I suppose my mind is at the mercy of my heart if I also can't hide my feelings well.

I think this is very good, it is ideal to have balance between head and mind. What do you mean by being not able well to hide your feelings?

[Sali]

I think I'm a logical person, but I don't know if I always choose logical decision making as a preference.  I think I'm often ruled by my heart--what makes me feel good and happy.  I also think always being logical doesn't let me see the reasons people do things; you need empathy for that, because some reasons are far from logical.  But I'm even more doubtful now that I'm Rational because although I don't love chaos, the way something hangs on a wall isn't too much of a concern.  I might notice it is off balance but it doesn't bother me like it would some people, like ISTJs in my life.  Where I seek control is things like how I'm presented in photographs, like I want to decide the image that goes public, while some people don't care if they're all candid photos.  I'm also responsible when I absolutely must be, but I'm quite lazy and like to delegate tasks to others if I can (unless it's something I feel has to be done by me).  So, maybe my doubtfulness comes from being a Perceiver, or Irrational.

Logic, though, might be one of my good attributes and also my Achilles heel.  Perhaps my need for things to make sense isn't so much Rationality but Logic.

As with my views on lying or being lied to, I don't judge people because each person has their chosen ways, as I too like freedom from judgment, but I still have some strong views over which I can be reactionary, maybe when something is connected to me personally, or someone is hurt.  Is having such views an Ethics function?  Or maybe this is Logic again, just wanting to make sense and be consistent.

Silly situation: I've been on many bandstands where the musicians start getting silly during a gig.  I can be playful, silly like make musical jokes (hit a cowbell where it doesn't belong in a song) that only the musicians or some hip bystander would understand, but I wouldn't make a scene before an audience enough to draw attention.  There was a gig where the band was daring to sing dirty versions of songs by changing the lyrics, but I didn't sing them over the microphone like the bandleader did.  Then we all were mortified but couldn't stop laughing.  I enjoy a good laugh, and always find something funny each day, so I can be silly, maybe more in the things I say or physical gestures when I talk (I might say "3 thumbs up!" and attempt to show that with hands and foot) than to cause a riot.  Of course I like attention when I'm actually performing.

I don't have much of a Poker face.  My feelings come out on my face and in my tone of voice most of the time.  Maybe I don't try hard enough.  If I could control this, I'd be a more tactful person.

 

[Sali]

I wanted to mention that the first time I took the Pattern Test, I got Superego-Id, which was described as being balanced between Rationality/Irrationality and Extraversion/Introversion.  Although the second time I took it yielded a different result (Superego-Superid), I can see why someone who was balanced in this way can be hard to type.  Incidentally, I got EII on the Associative Test although I skipped many questions.  Perhaps if I retake it after you help me clarify the functions so I can better self-assess, I will get a different result, one that will be an even better fit.

[Ольга]

Even though you have your doubts which is normal test results show strong preference for Superego as a leading energy. So first time you got strong statics and another time strong introversion. Together they make up for rationality. So your pattern of the basic traits related to group  level would be  statics-  introversion - rationality or
 introversion - statics- - rationality. Rationality less evident our of three of the traits.
If we suggest for you LII then as subtype could be either ILE or ILI but not LIE.

What you could do, you could look at the duals of LII and ILI. May be you will get a vibe of what you like more either ESE or SEE. First you look at the pictures and then you can even look at the videos. Have you tried it before?
You can also assess the dual and conflictor for EII to feel difference LSE and SLE.
If you Se is vulnerable you may feel not comfortable about strong and pushy people. If you are a logical type you may be annoyed with some people which seem to be stupid. Just an example.

We shall need to talk about your preferences in art and music- how you see it because you already know something about my approach.

[Sali]

I watched some type videos here, and didn't like any of those types.  I did make a mental note that Alexander Rybak (ESE) said he likes Beethoven because his music is very logical and easy to understand.  I guess of the 4 types, my choice would be ESE, but I need to see some art and maybe music that the types connect with.  I personally like Intuitives, probably more so the Introverted ones like myself: MBTI types INTJ, INTP, INFJ, INFP.  I don't know many of them, only one INTJ whom I get along spectacularly with, an INFJ whom I'm no longer in touch with, although I found her to be very protective but warm, an INFP whom I'm acquainted with who is creative, sexy and bright, a charming lady who's highly emotional and sensitive, and an INTP woman who is cool and sophisticated, one of the most intelligent and musically talented people I know.  I know a couple of ESTJs, ESFPs and ESFJs.  The ESTJs and I tend to get along; I find them bright, responsible and serious, but there are few common interests.  ESFJs seem warm yet controlling, but also bright and responsible.  I had ESFP women in my life that started out as friends but we've had fallouts when I think they got disillusioned by my being quite different from who they expected me to be.  I found them a bit judgmental, but this is my feeling about the ones I knew briefly.  I don't think I know any ESTPs.  Generally, Sensors are hard for me to make contact with because I'm in the arts where many Intuitives tend to find each other.  Of course there are artistic Sensors, but maybe I gravitate towards other Intuitives.

(I hope it's ok that I will disclose that the INTJ person took your tests and came up IEI, Superid-Superego, in case it's of interest to you to see how your Associative Test and Pattern Test turn out for others like me who type as MBTI INTJ.)

[Ольга]

Yes, it is always nice to know how people do on my tests and their feedback. I would suggest that it is better not to put too much expectation on one test result because it can be accidential.
Ideally we need 3 results to see if the results repeats or what is the tendency.

From your reply I understood that you do not have very good relationships with Se - types like SEE. That is good. Today I sew the actress which reminds me you or the image a I have about you.