Socionics4you.com
ТПЭ квадры - TPE quadras => Суперэго - типы => Достоевский - EII => Topic started by: Ольга on October 22, 2014, 08:43:27 AM
-
This is the topic for Sali. :)
-
<iframe src="https://www.tumblr.com/video/pinkmanhattan/100280343233/500" id="tumblr_video_iframe_100280343233" class="tumblr_video_iframe" width="500" height="409" style="display:block;background-color:transparent;overflow:hidden;" allowTransparency="true" frameborder="0" scrolling="no" webkitAllowFullScreen mozallowfullscreen allowFullScreen></iframe>
(Sorry if I can't use html here! Please follow the link to see my video.)
Hello, Olga, and thank you for your warm welcome. Hello, all. I'm here to find my Socionics type. Olga has kindly assessed my type to LII, but because I had doubts that I could be an EII, she has invited me here so perhaps tou can join in helping to type me.
In answer to Olga's Questionnaire, I preferred the Intuitive questions the best ("Could you waste your time?" was my favorite, philosophical sort of question), followed by Sensing ("Which accessories...make it look better?"), then Ethical (Why does religion help one person but not another?", which is another philosophical question in the context of an ethical topic), and lastly, the Logical. However, if the logical questions were connected to my personal interests such as technical things about music, I would probably rank these questions higher, if not the highest.
As for the 8 functions, I like Ne ("What's it all about?"--I enjoy seeing the big picture and summarizing it, or finding the point--this is also what gets me in trouble when I put words in people's mouths as I hear the way I hear things), also Ni ("When is the right time?"--also open-ended and philosophical), Se ("How will it benefit me?", "Will it improve my appearance?", although "How will it improve my appearance" would be a better question for me), Te ("In what sequence?"--I much prefer figuring out or deciding the order rather than following), Si ("Is it aesthetical?"--Again, I prefer to think about whether something is aesthetical or not based on not only aesthetic rules but my personal taste). What's left? Fi, Fe and Ti, all of which I use when necessary, but these weren't my favorite questions of the bunch to deal with on a regular basis. However, as a person, I am always aware of fair and respectful treatment of human beings, and of extinguishing stereotypes that can limit potential. I am often told I am an analytical person, which I guess is a Ti function. I present myself warmly to people, but I don't have unlimited patience for everyone, mostly just the closest people in my life for whom I always make time and prioritize.
My interests and hobbies are music (composing, performing, listening), surfing the net and reading stuff like Wikipedia, making things like perfume which begin with concepts and can be analyzed into structural components (notes and olfactory classifications), all kinds of art from drawings to dance.
Stronger and weaker qualities: Generally good at communicating my thoughts, bad at having very good tact and people skills, though I try. Bad sense of direction but can read maps. Good at making warm human connections, bad at keeping up with most trends because I live inside my own head so much of the time. Yet somehow, the trends sometimes find me, if that makes sense. I might not follow but sometimes I can feel the gist of an overall trend so I don't dress totally out of place.
Favourite subjects at school: Art and music
Professional interests and ambitions: To continue composing music and growing as a musician
What you close ones appreciate in you: I am honest about things and opinions, so I think people come to me for ideas or constructive criticism, but hopefully also for encouragement when they show me things they do and want me to say they do them well. I also teach, although my student load is very small. Sometimes, I can be funny, if not totally goofy and entertaining.
What do they criticize in you: Arrogance, vanity, inflexibility, stubbornness, the list goes on.
Thank you for your time! I look forward to reading your comments.
-
Sali, thank you for your story about yourself. Because you are artistic person I can think that your perception may be stronger than judgement and then I would consider you as not a rational introvert. You prefer irrational functions like Ni and Si and Ne and don't like questions about Fi, Ti and Fe. So we shall look at your now from all different perspectives. However, it will only work if we see something together - that something will make sense for you and me together. If you will carry on doubt about things I will not feel confident because I rely on your feedback.
Are you a dreamer? Is it natural for you to doubt? Have you done true predictions in the past? Are you a suspicious person?
-
Sali, please add to this topic your music and pictures and films like here:
http://socionics4you.com/%d1%82%d1%80%d0%b5%d0%b1%d0%be%d0%b2%d0%b0%d0%bd%d0%b8%d1%8f-%d0%bf%d0%be-%d0%bf%d1%80%d0%b5%d0%b4%d0%be%d1%81%d1%82%d0%b0%d0%b2%d0%bb%d0%b5%d0%bd%d0%b8%d1%8e-%d0%bc%d0%b0%d1%82%d0%b5%d1%80%d0%b8/?lang=en (http://socionics4you.com/%d1%82%d1%80%d0%b5%d0%b1%d0%be%d0%b2%d0%b0%d0%bd%d0%b8%d1%8f-%d0%bf%d0%be-%d0%bf%d1%80%d0%b5%d0%b4%d0%be%d1%81%d1%82%d0%b0%d0%b2%d0%bb%d0%b5%d0%bd%d0%b8%d1%8e-%d0%bc%d0%b0%d1%82%d0%b5%d1%80%d0%b8/?lang=en)
-
Thank you, Olga, for your comments and time. I believe I can be doubtful to a healthy degree, not so much by nature as environment and experience. Also, if logically I cannot fully understand how answers are arrived at. For instance, whether a Socionics type LII correlates to an MBTI INTJ or INTP is unclear theoretically, and therefore my doubts about being either type persists. These days, I think about how well you perceive my Ti, and I think EII is out of the question if their Ti is supposedly weak.
When I took the official MBTI (CAPT), I self-assessed in the end as INTJ but my practitioner thought I was INTP. On the written portion, I got INFP. (Edited to add) The first time I took an online MBTI, I came up INFJ, and subsequently many times, thus I always thought beingINFJ-INTJ had the highest possibilities.
I am a dreamer in the sense that I followed my dream of pursuing the arts and lived my life doing what I love. I still live according to dreams I hold in my heart, and always want a dream to wake up to and follow each day. Is dreaming of a life of music dreamy enough for most? I would think it takes dreams and a certain fearlessness of risk to make them a reality.
Back to doubts and suspicions: I have skepticism but I'm not a complete cynic, either. I like to be pragmatic if I can. When I was growing up, I took more risks, but now I take less, or maybe more calculated risks with self-preservation and cautiousness becoming more important. But I would still take chances if it's for the pursuit of happiness.
As for being future-seeing, I can grasp consequences to actions very quickly, in a flash sometimes, where the worst case scenarios do come to mind. I consider it a blessing, others see it sometimes as being too cautious, except when my vision is correct. I think many women probably possess the same ability to predict consequence out of being protective.
I hope I'm not being a headache to you because of my doubts. I will follow up with music and images.
-
Music I like:
Incubus- Pardon Me (w/ lyrics)
http://youtu.be/IhZvDJ2opsM (http://youtu.be/IhZvDJ2opsM)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IhZvDJ2opsM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IhZvDJ2opsM)
John Coltrane / Johnny Hartman / Lush Life
http://youtu.be/0izjSUqCcSQ (http://youtu.be/0izjSUqCcSQ)
Lateralus lyrics - Tool - Lateralus
http://youtu.be/TiRa_DwalQc (http://youtu.be/TiRa_DwalQc)
Kylie Minogue: Can´t get you outta my head HIGH quality HQ HD
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TiRa_DwalQc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TiRa_DwalQc)
Goo Goo Dolls-Iris Lyrics
http://youtu.be/TiRa_DwalQc (http://youtu.be/TiRa_DwalQc)
MeShell NdegeOcello - Mary Magdalene
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=awYc9xvqnv0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=awYc9xvqnv0)
http://youtu.be/awYc9xvqnv0 (http://youtu.be/awYc9xvqnv0)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=co7JKxBgB70 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=co7JKxBgB70)
http://youtu.be/Na-rQy9PRlA (http://youtu.be/Na-rQy9PRlA)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Na-rQy9PRlA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Na-rQy9PRlA)
http://youtu.be/B8UeeIAJ0a0 (http://youtu.be/B8UeeIAJ0a0)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8UeeIAJ0a0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8UeeIAJ0a0)
http://youtu.be/UkrTTn6tuJ8 (http://youtu.be/UkrTTn6tuJ8)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UkrTTn6tuJ8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UkrTTn6tuJ8)
Snow Patrol - Chasing Cars - lyrics
-
Sali, nothing to worry as I like to talk to people about their types. We need to talk to clear some issues or at least to try to understand.
The difference between MBTI and socionics exist for introverts only and it stems from a wrong conclusion from the author of MBTI model. She concluded that in introverts the second function is more visible when they express themselves outwardly, when they socialise with the others.
Why did she (author) think this way? Her line of thought was very simple. When the people interact with the other people they are in their extraverted state and hence what you see is what you get as a stronger function. This must be extraverted function because introverted function is something which is hidden inside of the psyche.
According to her, in extraverts is stronger the first function which is always extraverted and in introverts will be second function stronger presented. In irrational introverts the second function is extraverted and rational for ILI it is Te in MBTI and Te in Socionics. If your expert sensed stronger your logic she could easily assign you to the type INTP.
If socionics expert will sense stronger your logics you would be assign the type INTJ because we do not have a presumption that in introverts second function is stronger expressed.
This presumption blurs the type boundaries of the attribute rational - irrational. If you are sure that in terms of Jung's functions you are an intuitive and logical person all you need is to decide whether you are J or P. You work in the field of art which automatically suggest that P is very strong and it would be easy to suggest that you are an ILI- INTP. But we need to be sure and consider the criteria for being rational or irrational. This is a question number one.
There is a number of criteria which we can consider to decide it. For example, the tidiness in the house is not a strong criteria. Each attribute has got polar degrees: very tidy - in between - very messy. I have description of J and P for you to consider where you stand:
Rationality – irrationality
Irrational types – they quite easily adapt to changes in circumstances, are easy-going, usually act in spontaneous manner or arrange things at the last moment. Irrational type do plan as well but they can not stick to the plan. This type has the ability to grasp sudden change in situation and flexibly alter it to their needs. Irrationals may take part in several activities at once and do not complete them. Tend to work according to the mood. If the emotional state corresponds to the task, they can do the job in a few days.
Rational type – they prefer to plan their actions and tend to stick to their short and long term plans. Rational type does not admire sudden change because he finds it difficult to act appropriate to the plan in new circumstances. This type does not like to rush and prefer to prepare for the upcoming events in advance. Rationals do not like to change their decisions and plans so often. They tend to deliver the results for activities they choose, and do not start a new one, until they finish the previous one. This type is not disposed to engage in several projects at once. His work is typically well organized in time and sequent instances. Rational type’s performance is almost regardless of the mood.
-
It is also possible to consider J or P from the point of the leading functions. From your answer I got an impression that dreams for you are simply realistic goals ahead like a lighthouse. Then it is not what we understand by leading Ni. At this moment it would be good if you could understand the difference between Ni and Ti as programme functions and relate their descriptions to yourself.
This is the good article, you can read it in full or just look at the Ni and Ti profiles first. And Ni and Ne second.
http://socionics4you.com/%d0%b0%d1%81%d0%bf%d0%b5%d0%ba%d1%82%d1%8b-%d0%b8%d0%bd%d1%84%d0%be%d1%80%d0%bc%d0%b0%d1%86%d0%b8%d0%b8/?lang=en (http://socionics4you.com/%d0%b0%d1%81%d0%bf%d0%b5%d0%ba%d1%82%d1%8b-%d0%b8%d0%bd%d1%84%d0%be%d1%80%d0%bc%d0%b0%d1%86%d0%b8%d0%b8/?lang=en)
-
There is a short version of aspects in a table:
http://socionics4you.com/%d1%81%d0%b5%d0%bc%d0%b0%d0%bd%d1%82%d0%b8%d0%ba%d0%b0-%d0%b0%d1%81%d0%bf%d0%b5%d0%ba%d1%82%d0%be%d0%b2/?lang=en (http://socionics4you.com/%d1%81%d0%b5%d0%bc%d0%b0%d0%bd%d1%82%d0%b8%d0%ba%d0%b0-%d0%b0%d1%81%d0%bf%d0%b5%d0%ba%d1%82%d0%be%d0%b2/?lang=en)
-
Sali, I hope you will post also the music which you strongly dislike and pictures as well?
When you post music you click before on the u-tube on the button Share, you will get a different link to the song - a short one like this -----http://youtu.be/TiRa_DwalQc------
You just post the short link and the video automatically appears on the page.
When you post pictures you take a website link and paste it into the brackets - click on the symbol of Madonna by Da Vinchi - the second symbol on your left top.
If you want to post it from you PC you need to click on the link above your post in Russian - Добавить картинку в сообщение. С компьютера. Обзор. Загрузить Which means in English: Add a picture - From computer- search - download.
-
Thank you for your detailed explanation of the Introverts' J/P split. I will read the links you posted and see if I can understand the Ti/Ni functions better. If two experts including you sensed logic in me, I have little doubt I'm an INTx. I also need to learn the difference between logical and rational types. In the meantime, here are some links to music I dislike:
Hands up (Give Me Your Heart)
http://youtu.be/Mfp0X1aSjk0 (http://youtu.be/Mfp0X1aSjk0)
Electric slide
http://youtu.be/QmMQfTJ3gYk (http://youtu.be/QmMQfTJ3gYk)
The B-52's - "Rock Lobster" (Official Music Video)
http://youtu.be/n4QSYx4wVQg (http://youtu.be/n4QSYx4wVQg)
I'll see if I can fix the links to the songs I like. I will follow up with images.
-
Images I like:
(http://pinkmanhattan.blogspot.com/2014/10/glass-city-by-heinz-hajek-halke.html)
(http://pinkmanhattan.blogspot.com/2014/10/deco-futurism.html)
I have more that I like at this link at Socionics International on Facebook:
https://m.facebook.com/groups/339434052825361?view=permalink&id=534085936693504 (https://m.facebook.com/groups/339434052825361?view=permalink&id=534085936693504)
In case you don't see the images:
Image 1 http://pinkmanhattan.blogspot.com/2014/10/glass-city-by-heinz-hajek-halke.html (http://pinkmanhattan.blogspot.com/2014/10/glass-city-by-heinz-hajek-halke.html)
Image 2 http://pinkmanhattan.blogspot.com/2014/10/deco-futurism.html (http://pinkmanhattan.blogspot.com/2014/10/deco-futurism.html)
I don't like most of these images, especially the realism ones:
http://madefromhistory.com/world-war-one/painting/ (http://madefromhistory.com/world-war-one/painting/)
Or these http://www.tuttartpitturasculturapoesiamusica.com/2010/11/boris-indrikov.html (http://www.tuttartpitturasculturapoesiamusica.com/2010/11/boris-indrikov.html)
You can add to the dislike list much of Victorian art, as well done as many of them are http://homeliving.blogspot.com/2011/07/feminine-dress-portrayed-by-victorian.html (http://homeliving.blogspot.com/2011/07/feminine-dress-portrayed-by-victorian.html)
-
Olga, I am still confused about the J/P split in MBTI Introverts and the Socionics equivalent. An MBTI INTP is Ti-Ne. An MBTI INTJ is Ni-Te. My practitioner would have assessed that my Ne was the strongest if she thought I was an INTP, no?
I found this explanation of the difference between an MBTI INTP vs INTJ: http://thatintp.tumblr.com/post/25124245977/ni-te-vs-ti-ne-intj-vs-intp (http://thatintp.tumblr.com/post/25124245977/ni-te-vs-ti-ne-intj-vs-intp)
Another thought came to mind today, that the people who see me as a Thinker are Feelers, and the ones who see me as a Feeler are Thinkers. The same could be said for Introverts seeing me as an Extravert. Sometimes I wonder how relative the types are to the people assessing the types, as objectively as the assessments are done.
-
Sali, what they write is a nonsense. They associate the deduction with J and induction with P - it is not exactly how we understand what is J and P. J - means understanding the world by fixed judgement and perception is more flexible and does not need words. If you do not hold onto your understanding of things you are stronger in yor perception. If you hold to what you know about the world you always compare with what you know and how it fits to you understanding. Hence your perception is weaker.
There is a lot to it - to the difference between J and P. P- types are more easier adjust themselves to the situation and environment while J- types want the world to fit to their understanding of it. The world is how I see it understand it. if the world does not fit I need to change my understanding of the world. It takes a while usually to change your views and values. We live by vies and values and base our life around it.
If we don't understand something that bad - this means danger and instability. You cannot leave with the world all the time changing and shaking so that it reminds a chaos, can you?
-
As regards to induction and deduction - we all use both reasoning. The questims - types who like to question people as if they need always feedback from others may use more inductive reasoning and declatims - who can talk as if they talk to themselves - they may use more deductive reasoning. So it is just different interpretation, dont' take it serious.
I have a good link to the MBTI models for all 16 types after the text in Russian:
http://www.typelogic.ru/mbti/ (http://www.typelogic.ru/mbti/)
Ok, in MBTI they use functions of ILI - Balsac Ni+ Te and call it INTJ because of the second function Te being a rational one and stronger then Ni.
Basically, we can say that LII in socionics is Balsac with the emphasis on the logics - logical Balsac is LII. And Intutive LII is in MBTI Balzac (ILI).
If your practitioner see you as strong Ne, then it is the same like strong Ni because in MBTI there is no such thing as a strong Ni, right? As a logical introvert you can only have either strong Te or strong Ne.
Your practitioner could only compare Te with Ne and came to the conclusion that Ne is stronger. I don't know if she considered J and P separately from the model, did she?
Or do you think she based her conclusion heavily on MBTI model?
The next thing we need to compare the description of Te and Ne as well as Ti and Ni in MBTI and socionics in order to understand the difference between MBTI and socionics.
In socionics we compare the leading functions Ti and Ni which relate to J and P.
-
"Sometimes I wonder how relative the types are to the people assessing the types, as objectively as the assessments are done".
The fact is that we use our subjective view can be as fortunate and unfortunate - we cannot exclude it. There is no 100% confidence but there is a common sense logic. We base our opinion on analysis and logic. Then we say at this point in time this is the best conclusion. It should be thought and felt right. The deeper is your knowledge the more clear you can see.
-
Thank you very much for examining my point re: MBTI types and their functions not aligning with Socionics types. So if an LII is an MBTI INTP, it means both experts in each their respective fields of typology saw me as the same type. I am content with that, except your question regarding how my MBTI practitioner arrived at my type has me questioning whether the models even match between the two systems. I believe my practitioner, an MBTI ENFP, both broke down the J/P function separately and also assessed me holistically by looking at the model. In fact she told me to decide by reading the descriptions of the models in the end, which brought me to an INTJ conclusion. However, if the MBTI INTJ Ni-Te sounds more like the Socionics LII by overall description, your original theory would be correct, that the types between systems don't change. Could you please see if the models are the same? Are the models more reliable than the functions for best fit typing? Very interesting that an an MBTI INTJ Ni-Te can have a model description that corresponds to LII--is it possible?
-
I don't know if others have as difficult a time as I do seeing myself objectively, but I really am trying. I still can't tell if I'm more easy-going or not, because in some ways, I like to shape my world according to how I see or want it, and feel I can make an impact, hopefully make it better than before I left it. However, I need freedom amd flexibility to be truly happy and in my creative element. I tend to like things like modern art, from abstract expressionism to conceptual, and complex forms of jazz which rely heavily on improvisation and experimentation. I can be impulsive at times, but orderly, systematic and sequential in my thought processes, too. I prefer to prepare things in advance if I can, but often see myself just winging it. I have always worked regardless of my mood because you have to, but how I like to wprk is perhaps more about impulse than emotion (which I thought was an Ethics function); when I'm emotionally charged or impacted, I like to create while I still feel caught up in that world.
Sorry for so many tangents (maybe I am very Ne), but here's spmething else confusing about J/P: If I seek closure by seeking the truth, is that a J function? INTPs seek truth and problem-solving too, don't they?
-
I did not compare the descriptions of INTP in MBTI and with LII in socionics but I assume that everything is possible. They can have an image of LII which they coded with the functions of Ni and Te. It depends how they interpret the functions as well.
Generally the J types need closure because they don't like open end situation. If you can easy adjust yourself you will want freedom and open end so that you have space and time to move. If you are not easy and quick ready for a change then you need a more stable environment and more certainty on where you stand.
Is it easy for you to break the relationship and not matter how you feel - do not look back? This is a very common among ILIs.
Or may be you are the person who is ready to take on guilt just to keep the partner happy and to stay in the relationship? When it is actually not your fault.
-
To generalize, I believe I'm the kind of person who does whatever I can to resolve issues arising in the relationship until I see no hope of resolution, or lose interest (usually as a result of not being able to resolve an issue). At that point, a clean break is possible, and I never go back once I decide it's really over. I can be as patient with people as I am demanding; I can be hard to please because I don't let anything go, and expect things to always make sense. I feel I am sensitive and conscientious of the other's needs, whether emotional or mental, and want the same in return. I also realize a deeply sensitive, conscientious man is hard to find, though not impossible.
Re: Guilt--I can be guilted into staying longer than I need to, but it won't work forever. I can also be guilted into leaving, if I feel the person could do better without me.
Re: J/P--Honestly, I want closure for a sense of stability, but freedom for the control, to do things at my pace and will.
-
To generalize, I believe I'm the kind of person who does whatever I can to resolve issues arising in the relationship until I see no hope of resolution, or lose interest (usually as a result of not being able to resolve an issue). At that point, a clean break is possible, and I never go back once I decide it's really over. I can be as patient with people as I am demanding; I can be hard to please because I don't let anything go, and expect things to always make sense.
Sali, if you don't let anything go that means you are for control of the situation. That means you are not happy to leave it as it is and got with the flow. That means you need stability and control over your environment otherwise you will not feel comfortable. It would suite well the vulnerable Se - extra attention to your territory and to all what belongs to you. If you need always to understand things - that means J level because on the P level it does not necessarily needs to be verbalised or even understood.
As you see I am not saying that this is just logic but rationality.
I feel I am sensitive and conscientious of the other's needs, whether emotional or mental, and want the same in return. I also realize a deeply sensitive, conscientious man is hard to find, though not impossible.
Re: Guilt--I can be guilted into staying longer than I need to, but it won't work forever. I can also be guilted into leaving, if I feel the person could do better without me.
Re: J/P--Honestly, I want closure for a sense of stability, but freedom for the control, to do things at my pace and will.
If you consider all these things you must have Ti and Fi in your mental block - you must be Superego type. It is all relates to Ti+ Fi.
All introverts need space to do things at their own pace and will. But not many can work under pressure. NT types prefer to work free and don't like any pressure as such.
If you would be an ethical type you could easily say sorry in the situation even if you have got nothing to be blamed for just for the sake of peace and quiet. YOU could easie to say or do something which has not got any sense just to keep somebody happy. In this case there would be not so much need for control and you could let go no just anything but a lot and would not feel guilty as such.
If you remember any sort of story which you found not nice or which you did not know how to resolve or where you were unsure and needed advice - try to remember it. This could lead us to your weak function. Do you believe that you are always right? Do you trust your mind or your heart more? did you do anything which would go against your mind and would feel sorry after that?
It is also important when you try to understand the action of somebody what information you search to make a conclusion or decision? Ideally you would give me a concrete example from you life experience.
-
Olga, I am still unclear about the difference between logic and rationality, but I think your assessment of me being a J type because of my need for control is a pretty good one. Still, I am unsure because I can be immune to guilt trips as well, and when the need arises, I can go with the flow quite easily and adapt. That's how I worked in music, TV and radio, especially if it had to be done live, which was nerve-wracking but got done without going into panic mode. As a lifelong performer, I can have grace under pressure.
It's absolutely fascinating and surprising what you said about Ethical types not feeling guilty, nor in need of being honest about their feelings, because they need only to people please. That drives me up the wall about people; does such behavior not constitute as lying? The only realm I accept not being honest is for the sake of keeping romantic feelings alive--no, we don't answer questions that play on each other's vulnerabilities, but protect each other's feelings if we love each other, out of kindness and mercy, good manners and all that. But that's not the same thing as not resolving issues that arise in the relationship. I guess I'm selective about when it's important and when it's not.
I'm not even sure I'm really an Introvert, because no one in my life has ever thought I was one, although I have been told once, "You're so quiet!" by one of the actors I worked with in a voice over session. The actors were constantly joking and telling stories, and I was enjoying their company but also wanted just to get the work done efficiently without wasting too much time. I suppose I am slightly dull and boring in the eyes of bubblier people, though I can surprise people with one-liners out of the blue, and also lend warmth to a situation if need be.
I had some things stolen from my house once by a babysitter. It was almost impossible to get this person to confess in front of the parents; not even the threat of involving the police would do it, but I relayed the importance of the stolen goods in my family down memory lane, and got this babysitter crying and confessing, later returning the things. I believed this person understood my concern wasn't just for my things and justice but to reach this person's heart through mine. I think I am ruled by both heart and mind, but my heart wins out in the end.
I am uncomfortable with the notion of the mind and heart being separate. My feelings are connected to the mind. I suppose my mind is at the mercy of my heart if I also can't hide my feelings well.
-
Olga, how can you tell someone is an Intuitive based either on function analysis or visual identification? I'm quite certain I'm Intuitive because most people think I come from left field, and 99.9% of the time, I type as one.
-
Olga, how can you tell someone is an Intuitive based either on function analysis or visual identification? I'm quite certain I'm Intuitive because most people think I come from left field, and 99.9% of the time, I type as one.
How can we understand anything about the personality type - through your verbal self- assessment. I don't know you as such and in my eyes you could be any type but I rely on your feedback heavily. Tests results , if they are consistent plus analysis of non-verbal preferences. I am not thinking the clients lie on purpose or try to obscure their self- description. I try to make sense of how you see yourself and how you write about yourself based on the knowledge about the types and models. It is all approximate.
At the moment we see that you are more likely to be a IJ type (Superego - type) and both types LII and EII coming very close. We assume that logic may be leading due to the hard core principles and control seeking. The line is very thin. I am trying to help you to see the difference between functions and types so that you could make a decision. If you would carry on doubting that means you are in need of your own personal experience and interaction with LII and EII.
I still need to have a look at your preferences once again.
-
Olga, I am still unclear about the difference between logic and rationality, but I think your assessment of me being a J type because of my need for control is a pretty good one.
Rational people like closure and like things to be in order. Simple things can show a lot. Like the picture on the wall is hanging not right, the curtain is hanging wrong, the food rest overs are left in the lunge and etc. J- people try to prepare themselves bit by bit planning their routine. The mood does not affect them because they know the word "you have to".
Logic means being categorical and stick to your guns, judging by yes or no and white and black because this is easier to understand and to judge based on logics "if - then". this is how the mind works by being objective.
It's absolutely fascinating and surprising what you said about Ethical types not feeling guilty, nor in need of being honest about their feelings, because they need only to people please. That drives me up the wall about people; does such behavior not constitute as lying?
It is lying and it is not lying at the same time. Lie is something bad but some lies are good. We cannot live by strict rules and principles. We need to have space to move around and do what we want to do without upsetting people. There are shades like grey which allow as to be good and bad at the same time.
The only realm I accept not being honest is for the sake of keeping romantic feelings alive--no, we don't answer questions that play on each other's vulnerabilities, but protect each other's feelings if we love each other, out of kindness and mercy, good manners and all that. But that's not the same thing as not resolving issues that arise in the relationship. I guess I'm selective about when it's important and when it's not.
You take into account that people are not perfect and then you have to tolerate them being bad at times. You forgive them for their imperfections because no one is perfect. It is up to the person what and how much he can tolerate in the relationships. Some people don't mind their partners to cheat and etc and some do.
I'm not even sure I'm really an Introvert, because no one in my life has ever thought I was one, although I have been told once, "You're so quiet!" by one of the actors I worked with in a voice over session. The actors were constantly joking and telling stories, and I was enjoying their company but also wanted just to get the work done efficiently without wasting too much time. I suppose I am slightly dull and boring in the eyes of bubblier people, though I can surprise people with one-liners out of the blue, and also lend warmth to a situation if need be.
There is no clear cut attributes - it is a degree that we are looking at. Some people more or less sociable. If generally you fit to introverted profile more - this is good enough at the moment.
I had some things stolen from my house once by a babysitter. It was almost impossible to get this person to confess in front of the parents; not even the threat of involving the police would do it, but I relayed the importance of the stolen goods in my family down memory lane, and got this babysitter crying and confessing, later returning the things. I believed this person understood my concern wasn't just for my things and justice but to reach this person's heart through mine. I think I am ruled by both heart and mind, but my heart wins out in the end.
So, this was a difficult situation and you managed to achieve what you wanted. Have you been in a silly situations where you could not keep the face right and did something inadequate?
I am uncomfortable with the notion of the mind and heart being separate. My feelings are connected to the mind. I suppose my mind is at the mercy of my heart if I also can't hide my feelings well.
I think this is very good, it is ideal to have balance between head and mind. What do you mean by being not able well to hide your feelings?
-
I think I'm a logical person, but I don't know if I always choose logical decision making as a preference. I think I'm often ruled by my heart--what makes me feel good and happy. I also think always being logical doesn't let me see the reasons people do things; you need empathy for that, because some reasons are far from logical. But I'm even more doubtful now that I'm Rational because although I don't love chaos, the way something hangs on a wall isn't too much of a concern. I might notice it is off balance but it doesn't bother me like it would some people, like ISTJs in my life. Where I seek control is things like how I'm presented in photographs, like I want to decide the image that goes public, while some people don't care if they're all candid photos. I'm also responsible when I absolutely must be, but I'm quite lazy and like to delegate tasks to others if I can (unless it's something I feel has to be done by me). So, maybe my doubtfulness comes from being a Perceiver, or Irrational.
Logic, though, might be one of my good attributes and also my Achilles heel. Perhaps my need for things to make sense isn't so much Rationality but Logic.
As with my views on lying or being lied to, I don't judge people because each person has their chosen ways, as I too like freedom from judgment, but I still have some strong views over which I can be reactionary, maybe when something is connected to me personally, or someone is hurt. Is having such views an Ethics function? Or maybe this is Logic again, just wanting to make sense and be consistent.
Silly situation: I've been on many bandstands where the musicians start getting silly during a gig. I can be playful, silly like make musical jokes (hit a cowbell where it doesn't belong in a song) that only the musicians or some hip bystander would understand, but I wouldn't make a scene before an audience enough to draw attention. There was a gig where the band was daring to sing dirty versions of songs by changing the lyrics, but I didn't sing them over the microphone like the bandleader did. Then we all were mortified but couldn't stop laughing. I enjoy a good laugh, and always find something funny each day, so I can be silly, maybe more in the things I say or physical gestures when I talk (I might say "3 thumbs up!" and attempt to show that with hands and foot) than to cause a riot. Of course I like attention when I'm actually performing.
I don't have much of a Poker face. My feelings come out on my face and in my tone of voice most of the time. Maybe I don't try hard enough. If I could control this, I'd be a more tactful person.
-
I wanted to mention that the first time I took the Pattern Test, I got Superego-Id, which was described as being balanced between Rationality/Irrationality and Extraversion/Introversion. Although the second time I took it yielded a different result (Superego-Superid), I can see why someone who was balanced in this way can be hard to type. Incidentally, I got EII on the Associative Test although I skipped many questions. Perhaps if I retake it after you help me clarify the functions so I can better self-assess, I will get a different result, one that will be an even better fit.
-
Even though you have your doubts which is normal test results show strong preference for Superego as a leading energy. So first time you got strong statics and another time strong introversion. Together they make up for rationality. So your pattern of the basic traits related to group level would be statics- introversion - rationality or
introversion - statics- - rationality. Rationality less evident our of three of the traits.
If we suggest for you LII then as subtype could be either ILE or ILI but not LIE.
What you could do, you could look at the duals of LII and ILI. May be you will get a vibe of what you like more either ESE or SEE. First you look at the pictures and then you can even look at the videos. Have you tried it before?
You can also assess the dual and conflictor for EII to feel difference LSE and SLE.
If you Se is vulnerable you may feel not comfortable about strong and pushy people. If you are a logical type you may be annoyed with some people which seem to be stupid. Just an example.
We shall need to talk about your preferences in art and music- how you see it because you already know something about my approach.
-
I watched some type videos here, and didn't like any of those types. I did make a mental note that Alexander Rybak (ESE) said he likes Beethoven because his music is very logical and easy to understand. I guess of the 4 types, my choice would be ESE, but I need to see some art and maybe music that the types connect with. I personally like Intuitives, probably more so the Introverted ones like myself: MBTI types INTJ, INTP, INFJ, INFP. I don't know many of them, only one INTJ whom I get along spectacularly with, an INFJ whom I'm no longer in touch with, although I found her to be very protective but warm, an INFP whom I'm acquainted with who is creative, sexy and bright, a charming lady who's highly emotional and sensitive, and an INTP woman who is cool and sophisticated, one of the most intelligent and musically talented people I know. I know a couple of ESTJs, ESFPs and ESFJs. The ESTJs and I tend to get along; I find them bright, responsible and serious, but there are few common interests. ESFJs seem warm yet controlling, but also bright and responsible. I had ESFP women in my life that started out as friends but we've had fallouts when I think they got disillusioned by my being quite different from who they expected me to be. I found them a bit judgmental, but this is my feeling about the ones I knew briefly. I don't think I know any ESTPs. Generally, Sensors are hard for me to make contact with because I'm in the arts where many Intuitives tend to find each other. Of course there are artistic Sensors, but maybe I gravitate towards other Intuitives.
(I hope it's ok that I will disclose that the INTJ person took your tests and came up IEI, Superid-Superego, in case it's of interest to you to see how your Associative Test and Pattern Test turn out for others like me who type as MBTI INTJ.)
-
Yes, it is always nice to know how people do on my tests and their feedback. I would suggest that it is better not to put too much expectation on one test result because it can be accidential.
Ideally we need 3 results to see if the results repeats or what is the tendency.
From your reply I understood that you do not have very good relationships with Se - types like SEE. That is good. Today I sew the actress which reminds me you or the image a I have about you. :)
-
Olga, are you going to tell me who it is? Please? ;D
-
Speaking of artistic Sensors, I just remembered you are an SEI ISFp, so I gravitated towards at least one Sensor.
-
I just posted everywhere on facebook her pictures:
marion cotillard
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=marion+cotillard+photos&biw=1920&bih=998&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=D5RTVOn9LuTbsATx8oCwCA&ved=0CCAQsAQ#facrc=_&imgdii=_&imgrc=FM9v4sG0UAnrkM%253A%3BnyVeeH4aauXUoM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.thewallpapers.org%252Fphoto%252F66388%252FMarion-Cotillard-111.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.thewallpapers.org%252Ftag%252Fmarion%3B2560%3B1920 (https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=marion+cotillard+photos&biw=1920&bih=998&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=D5RTVOn9LuTbsATx8oCwCA&ved=0CCAQsAQ#facrc=_&imgdii=_&imgrc=FM9v4sG0UAnrkM%253A%3BnyVeeH4aauXUoM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.thewallpapers.org%252Fphoto%252F66388%252FMarion-Cotillard-111.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.thewallpapers.org%252Ftag%252Fmarion%3B2560%3B1920)
-
Olga, you are too kind. She's gorgeous!
And as I commented in your Facebook group, What's My Type? FB, Catherine Deneuve who you say is a similar type, is one of my favorite actresses, maybe even my very favorite.
-
Since we're on the subject of actors, I also love Rosanna Arquette (IEI?), particularly her role in the film, New York Stories. I don't watch movies often, but when I do, I seem to like the more obscure ones: Round Midnight starring Dexter Gordon (a jazz film), Belle de Jour starring Catherine Deneuve (I can see LII or EII for her), Ciao! Manhattan starring Edie Sedgwick (SEI? Or maybe IEI/ILI) (for the visual art of Andy Warhol--I wonder what type is he?). I like some drama and comedy, too, but again, I'm not a movie watcher.
I also liked Barbara Streisand in Yentl.
I just realized I made no mention of current actors, so I'll add that I think Angelina Jolie and Megan Fox are attractive, and Gwyneth Paltrow has a nice vibe. I haven't seen their films. I think Jamie Foxx is brilliant. I like Chris Rock, too, so I like comedians.
About duals: I don't know if SEE is my conflictor because I think I'm even more uncomfortable with the LSE vibe, at least based on the videos posted here. I rather like some SEE types, like I think Britney Spears is very cute.
-
There is quite a lot of new names for me here. You can post pictures of any actor you like on facebook and we can try all together to look into his/her type.
-
I posted in the group What's My Type? FB some V.I. threads if you and others are interested. I wanted to mention I also liked a very obscure TV sitcom series called The John Larroquette Show starring the eponymous actor (http://epguides.com/johnlarroquetteshow/guide.shtml (http://epguides.com/johnlarroquetteshow/guide.shtml)). I'll get around to posting a thread to type him as well.
I've come to see that whatever type I am, I tend to like a mix of Ego (Ego-Superid?) music and romantic ballads. If I could synthesize a hybrid type between, say, LII and IEI, that would probably be me.
How would you like me to go about typing my preferences in music and art? I can post my impressions here.
-
If you say that you are between LII and ILI than this is introverted profile. :)
-
Oh you can't mix T and F as a subtype, like LII and IEI? I have a hard time letting go of the possibility of being a Feeling type still. I relate well to being protective of loved ones and empathizing; in fact I can be too much of an empath while also being a bit selective about who I bring into my inner circle. I also derive great joy from writing and journaling. If that's not IEI or EII, even IEE as someone suggested in your Facebook group, I'd be surprised. I guess I still think the first outcome of a personality test is probably the most accurate, and that type is INFJ. I'm the type that apparently has a hard time letting go.
I also think your Associative Test is very accurate! Maybe a mix of LII and IEI makes EII.
I wish there was an objective way to know, to be absolutely convinced of being a Logical type.
-
You will understand the difference if you practice further the approach - you need your own experience. :)
I look at your pictures but not all are open. Please, check it out.
As an option we could have later a chat on the Skype- to try at least.
-
Ok, everything has open but I wish you could post more pictures and photos that you like!
Sali, I looked again at all you non-verbal preferences and I think it fits well LII type. I do not see anything in particular to consider you as EII - I do not see enough ethics.
The pictures you don't like they are some from Ego ( the war) and some from Superid (ethical , IEI). Your music is more rational profile Superego - Ego. What you don't like is more Id- music.
Your pcitures more Ni- like and ILI. You are welcome to give me more of your favourite art.
LII with the subtype ILI
-
Sorry Olga, I am not on Skype yet. As for having an Introverted psychodynamic profile, I wonder if my first Pattern Test result, a Static profile (Superego-Id) was more accurate. How do you measure temperament or mood: is that determined by the T/F dichotomy, or something else?
I think I need to get to know the Psychodynamic profiles to better visualize my best fit type. This is a very interesting approach to finding type, and I like it very much, the fact that you could have a subtype which enriches your personality, and how the particular melding of the TPE types combine into one of these states called psychodynamic profiles.
-
I'm sorry I still can't figure out how to post images correctly. As for art, I love a wide array from Basquiat http://www.brooklynmuseum.org/exhibitions/basquiat/ (http://www.brooklynmuseum.org/exhibitions/basquiat/) to Ad Reinhardt http://www.pinterest.com/ogmundurs/ad-reinhardt/ (http://www.pinterest.com/ogmundurs/ad-reinhardt/) Abstract expressionism http://artunleashed.zoomblog.com/archivo/2007/05/13/the-Coming-light-symbolism-abstract-ex.html (http://artunleashed.zoomblog.com/archivo/2007/05/13/the-Coming-light-symbolism-abstract-ex.html)
But I enjoy more classical forms of painting as well.
-
Sali, first about the posting the images. I click on the picture and and then on the properties of the picture. The window opens with the address which I copy:
http://www.brooklynmuseum.org/exhibitions/basquiat/images/basquiat_sig_335.jpg (http://www.brooklynmuseum.org/exhibitions/basquiat/images/basquiat_sig_335.jpg)
Then I click on the icon of the Madonna picture by Leonardo De vichi and the image brackets appear. I fit the address into the brackets and it is ready:
(http://www.brooklynmuseum.org/exhibitions/basquiat/images/basquiat_sig_335.jpg)
This is how you post pictures from any website. :) It is very good that you say the styles of art that you like but we need concrete examples as well because each pictures is unic.
-
Sorry Olga, I am not on Skype yet. As for having an Introverted psychodynamic profile, I wonder if my first Pattern Test result, a Static profile (Superego-Id) was more accurate. How do you measure temperament or mood: is that determined by the T/F dichotomy, or something else?
I think I need to get to know the Psychodynamic profiles to better visualize my best fit type. This is a very interesting approach to finding type, and I like it very much, the fact that you could have a subtype which enriches your personality, and how the particular melding of the TPE types combine into one of these states called psychodynamic profiles.
With assigning the psychodynamic profiles situation is even more obscure then with the assigning the type. It is down to the degree of manifestation of type and subtype or a typical trait. By some people the type is seen clearly for another we do not see the type but see the trait introversion or logic. And on the basis what we see more clearly we assign the profile ( introverted) or a subtype. Introverted ILI means LII as a subtype. Or if we doubt between two functions like in case with Jen then we can say that she has introverted profile; Introverted IEI means EII as a subtype; or ethical IEI because the doubt is between sensing and intuition but not ethics - no one doubt in her ethics.
As regards to your profile we see introversion and we see statics (as a test result). This means that both profiles and subtypes are possible (ILI and ILE). In music you may show ILE subtype and in art - ILI. Often I suggest the people to decide themselves what is stronger manifested in their psyche.
Another way to decide about the subtype is to ask people how they see you. If the majority will see you as an introvert and will be not sure if you are LII or ILI then this is how you appear to others. This also means that potentially you will attract the interest of duals like ESE or SEE.
I am working at the moment on the translation of the article about subtypes, it will appear today. I will post the link everywhere.
-
Sali, how would you type this picture in terms of TPE?
(http://www.kazuya-akimoto.com/2005/2005imges/4231_the_coming_450.jpg)
-
Thank you for the detailed explanation on psychodynamic profiles. I understand the degree of subtype makes it difficult to point out sometimes. Since no one thinks I'm introverted, it's likely I'm an ILE subtype, but the fact that I have never tested on any system as an ENTP, yet that I have as an INTP including my MBTI practitioner's assessment, logically ILI sounds closer.
If we went more by my musical taste than art, ILI is correct. I don't think I'm nearly as picky about art, but then again, my color preferences are pretty definite, probably more to do with introversion.
I wonder if having balanced states makes me dynamic at least in part. I don't always feel like a Static individual.
As for the abstract expressionist painting in blue, I could say it is Superego-Superid, because the lines show dynamics, yet the theme is that of light that emanates from an unknown, somewhat mysterious source. It can have echoes of LII for its cool shades, or EII for its spiritual motif. It also has a significant amount of brightness which can show a bit of extraversion coming through, centered energy, maybe Ego. How am I doing so far? I'm really winging it. The dynamics probably make it more Superid, though.
I have images I wish I could post directly from my device that are too heavy. I'll see if I could find jpgs of some images to post here. Thank you for your offer to add more images, and for your patience!
-
(http://uploads7.wikiart.org/images/marc-chagall/song-of-songs-ii-1957-10.jpg!Blog.jpg)
Chagall, "Song of Songs"
(http://images.guggenheim-bilbao.es/src/uploads/2012/05/Basquiat-Man.jpg)
Basquiat,"Man from Naples
(http://www.moma.org/collection_images/resized/398/w500h420/CRI_206398.jpg)
Ad Reinhardt, "No. 107" (other works I like: http://pinkmanhattan.blogspot.com/2014/11/ad-reinhardt.html (http://pinkmanhattan.blogspot.com/2014/11/ad-reinhardt.html))
(http://www.pinterest.com/pin/11399805278941041/)
Pino "Mother and Daughter" (Sorry no jpg--this is my current profile picture.)
-
(http://www.designscene.net/wp-content/gallery/012013/frida-gustavsson-nina-ricci-nina-leau-fragrance-03.jpg)
Nina Ricci perfume ad
I like vintage ads by Lanvin because many illustrations are of a mother-child theme. This one is a more modern ad: http://hprints.com/Lanvin_Perfumes_1936_Arpege_Rumeur_Mon_Peche_Art_Deco_Style-40655.html (http://hprints.com/Lanvin_Perfumes_1936_Arpege_Rumeur_Mon_Peche_Art_Deco_Style-40655.html)
-
Olga, could I also tell you that in your Facebook groups, among the photos you posted of the image preferences for the TPE types, I liked the SLI photos of shadowy spotlights a lot. I don't know if that says anything else about me.
I look forward to learning more about Associative Socionics from you.
(http://images1.fanpop.com/images/image_uploads/Marion-Cotillard-marion-cotillard-823652_373_500.jpg)
P.S.: Love Marion Cotillard (LII)!
:)
-
Olga, I understand I'm taking up a lot of your time, but I wanted you to know I read your new article on TPE subtypes, and feel confident I'm an LII with subtype Id, a Static type as per my first Pattern Test result. It would explain the extroversion people see in me (and hopefully a healthy zest for life, aka libido...hehe). However, I think your initial theory regarding LII INTj and MBTI INTJ being the same type is more accurate than my argument here that an LII is an INTP based on the cognitive functions. I simply relate better to the overall descriptions in both systems better. I hope you will reply to the discussion I posted in your Facebook group https://m.facebook.com/groups/323245421136357?view=permalink&id=594790293981867&ref=bookmark regarding why P=p and J=j , and put this point to rest so I can have no doubts about my type.
Thank you and very best regards!
-
Sali, thank you for your contribution to discussions. I hope that you will arrive to a strong conclusion about your type and subtype and will be able to use successfully the approach in typing other people. I am working at the moment on the other test. I am planning to ad more information to the website so that it would be easier to orientate in theory. That is why I postpone the training course for a couple of months or so. :)
-
Olga, thank you for your indispensable knowledge and work in your field. I look forward to taking your course when it starts. While I still wonder about my subtype (Superid sounds just as possible), I'm confident about my LII type. Expert consultancy was the defining factor for me, and I'm so grateful to have found you! See you on your forum and FB groups. Very best regards
-
Sali strongly believes that her type is EII, that is why I transfer her topic to EII archive.