Carrina

[carrina]

First of all, I don't have an obsession with respect. It is one of my only core values. Respect encompasses all other possible ethical points: care for others, be empethetic, treat others as if you were treating yourself.

Its not as much as about me and respect, its more about me and disrespect. You can't truly care for yourself or those close to you if you don't care for everyone else as much as yourself.

That is respect. Its about everyone contributing to a prosperous and healthy environment.

[carrina]

Why is this a value of mine? One reason is as good as the next. I could write a biography for you but it would leave you depressed. Lol. Its hard to answer a question in this forum that has multiple answers.

[carrina]

Last time I cried it was because I found out that one of my closest friends didn't share a very important value to me. Of course I held back the tears and didn't show anyone I was upset. obviously ethical
The time right before that I was crying about social conditions that don't affect me in any way..obvously ethical
 All of my goals are just "starting points".clearly irrational The starting point is that I care about the social situations in our world. We both know these are goals that an ethical individual would have. If you have been paying attention you may have noticed; I am always speaking about values and ethics, also about affecting change in the world. So I could be wrong but possible extravert as well.

I don't know if I am even going to go back to school. I hope that the situation presents itself, I think I am going to, but if my life doesn't have a space for that, I won't do it.irrational, we both know it MY PERSONAL Accosiations with the Dance Scene of fiddler on the roof was an ethical problem that was laid asside for people to have fun. The opposing culture crashed the party (irrational) everyone was getting drunk, tables were flying.. Your associations to this scene might be logical, but mine are ethical and irrational.

I am very sure that I am not a logical type, or a rational type. I think for me to be persuaded to take on such a profile, I would have to know the reasons were better than mine.
If you no longer want to spend any time typing me with your method, I understand. I came here to be typed and don't really know if you are messing with me or not. Again, if you don't want to type me, I would prefer not to waste any more of your time.

My appologies by the way.

[Ольга]

Carrina, are you afraid of being messed up? Are you quite conscious about the fact that people can brainwash you?
What you write in red as "we both know it is right" is not right really from objective stand point but very right from the subjective perspective of Ti as Jung described it. The vision of the world depends heavily on how Ti- type see the world and he or she expects people see it in the same way because it is so obvious to him or her. If somebody tries to bring across a different view Ti -type feels as if somebody wants to crash his world - the line of thought in his head and this what annoys him. You can only accept the vision which coincide with yours. this is very natural to LII.

I don't think anything will help you to see the different you as we can see it from the outside. You heavily rely on your vision of yourself, your judgement.
I wanted to talk to you on scype but as I said earlier you are not ready for a change of view about yourself. The other factor is that you most likely don't trust me as an expert. You did not answer on some of my important questions in this thread.  Therefore I believe it is better not to waste each other's time. Saying all that I can add that you are always welcome back when you will have a doubt about ethics- logics and I would be happy to teach you my approach. I recommend it to anyone because then you can see your information with a completely different eyes - you can revaluate it as an outsider, more objectively. You don't have a lot of information about socionics yet, and what you have is obscured. this is one of the reason why you cannot see the points I am making. Please, don't be offended. I just have to mention it because this is an obvious factor and it is not my fault. I think me and Malcolm tried hard. 

Whatever we discussed here I don't want you top have bad thoughts or memories. Not matter what your type is you are an individual and that what matters. You have huge range of decent qualities to your character and I am sure you succeed in life and realise your dreams for yourself and your family.

If you ever have problems in the relationship you are welcome to contact me for support because I am a psychologist as well and I charge much less that other psychologists do because my priority is socionics.

It was lovely to talk to you.))

The topic stays open as I am not sure if Malcolm still has some questions and want to carry on talking to yo about your type.
If you want to discuss your type in SI on facebook - you can give a link - very welcome to do this. 

[carrina]

Carrina, are you afraid of being messed up? Are you quite conscious about the fact that people can brainwash you?
What you write in red as "we both know it is right" is not right really from objective stand point but very right from the subjective perspective of Ti as Jung described it. The vision of the world depends heavily on how Ti- type see the world and he or she expects people see it in the same way because it is so obvious to him or her. If somebody tries to bring across a different view Ti -type feels as if somebody wants to crash his world - the line of thought in his head and this what annoys him. You can only accept the vision which coincide with yours. this is very natural to LII. this is not true of me at all.

I don't think anything will help you to see the different you as we can see it from the outside. You heavily rely on your vision of yourself, your judgement.
I wanted to talk to you on scype but as I said earlier you are not ready for a change of view about yourself. I am quite ready and have been able to place myself in the shoes of many types.The other factor is that you most likely don't trust me as an expert. You did not answer on some of my important questions in this thread.  Therefore I believe it is better not to waste each other's time. Saying all that I can add that you are always welcome back when you will have a doubt about ethics- logics and I would be happy to teach you my approach. I recommend it to anyone because then you can see your information with a completely different eyes - you can revaluate it as an outsider, more objectively. You don't have a lot of information about socionics yet, and what you have is obscured. this is one of the reason why you cannot see the points I am making. I am very able to see the points you are making. It is also possible for me to see that your point of view is limited and your view here will not change. Please, don't be offended. I just have to mention it because this is an obvious factor and it is not my fault. I think me and Malcolm tried hard. I am not offended. I'm sure you did try hard but it is not professional practice for a socionics practitioner to force a type on someone. We both know this Olga. It is very frusterating to me. I understand you. I understand where you are coming from. I also understand myself and how you are skewing my personality to fit your ideas. I can only try so hard to show you. Again, everything is okay but we are in disagreement and may have to part ways now. 

Whatever we discussed here I don't want you top have bad thoughts or memories. Not matter what your type is you are an individual and that what matters. You have huge range of decent qualities to your character and I am sure you succeed in life and realise your dreams for yourself and your family.

If you ever have problems in the relationship you are welcome to contact me for support because I am a psychologist as well and I charge much less that other psychologists do because my priority is socionics.

It was lovely to talk to you.))

The topic stays open as I am not sure if Malcolm still has some questions and want to carry on talking to yo about your type.
If you want to discuss your type in SI on facebook - you can give a link - very welcome to do this. 

[Ольга]

Carrina, it is a shame that you feel as if I forced anything on you. If I would force my opinion on you, I would do it differently. I would say just that - you don't know much socionics  and this is a fact. In this thread you mentioned a lot of times that you are not sure you understand right this and that...This is very true. You have very obscure view of dichotomies, you haven't met ESIs in real life but at the same time you are sure that you know better. If you know everything better, why did you need a consultancy in a first place? You should be satisfied with typing in Jacks group.

But this is not the case.  You asked for my opinion and now you are saying that I forced my opinion on you. This is a joke. What did you exactly expected from me? I cannot say that you are not LII as I see you this way. I cannot see that I am in doubt because I am not. Does it really sound like a forced opinion? When you go to the doctor and he or she will give you his opinion - do you consider it as a forcing as well? May be it is exactly opposite and you have an issue with Se? This could easily explain why you feel that people always mess you and you mind about. If you would be an ethical type you could see the motives of people more clearly and would have less problems in understanding people.

[carrina]

Carrina, it is a shame that you feel as if I forced anything on you. If I would force my opinion on you, I would do it differently. I would say just that - you don't know much socionics you have and this is a fact. In this thread you mentioned a lot of times that you are not sure you understand right this and that...This is very trueyou just did it again.. Olga, you don't exactly knkow where my weaknesses in socionics lay. . You have very obscure view of dichotomies, you haven't met ESIs in real life but at the same time you are sure that you know better.I no longer believe that I am an ESI. I now know my type. If you know everything better, why did you need a consultancy in a first place? You should be satisfied with typing in Jacks group.I was very unhappy with that typing, it just didn't feel right. Hence why I moved to another professional for assistance.

But this is not the case.  You asked for my opinion and now you are saying that I forced my opinion on you.I have told you that I am not LII or Ti at all. I should know this about myself, you should have listened. This is a joke. What did you exactly expected from me? I cannot say that you are not LII as I see you this way. I cannot see that I am in doubt because I am not. Does it really sound like a forced opinion? When you go to the doctor and he or she will give you his opinion - do you consider it as a forcing as well? May be it is exactly opposite and you have an issue with Se? This could easily explain why you feel that people always mess you and you mind about. If you would be an ethical type you could see the motives of people more clearly and would have less problems in understanding people.I have no problems understanding people. I have a problem understanding the ethical problems with people. I understand people, I completely understand your points. but coming from my own perspective, it would be very wise of you to take what I say of myself as fact. You cannot insist on a lead function that I know I do not have. That is improper practice. I'm sorry that "this is a joke" to you. I had allot of respect for you. You HAVE attempted to coerce me. It is a fact at this point. I tip my hat to you and wish you all the best of you associative socionics.

One last point. I agree with associative socionics. But MY ASSOCIATIONS should not be assumed by you. You have to aske me what MY ASSOCIATIONS are, not tell me what they are, If you continue to do this, you will fail. I am SEE. If you are very serious about ASSOCIATIVE SOCIONICS, you will reevaluate MY ASSOCIATIONS in accordance with SEE. You cannot succeed with using these tactics of IMPOSING UNREAL ASSOCIATIONS on others.

\You may do exactly as you wish. I am offended at my own self, first, for being in a position to speak to you this way. Second, because my respect for you has had to be surpassed so that I can put forth this understanding, and third, that I havent been accepting of your answers, as it is in the slight, disrespectful to you. I am dearly sorry for that, and that we could not agree. I have given you some advice and I hope you will reevaluate your position in the future for your own benefit.

[Ольга]

Carrina, you don't know how my approach works and give me advice - this is a joke. You are not ESI and not SEE - don't make a joke of yourself  - this is my advice to you.
You have a very wrong understanding of Ti and how it comes to express itself on one hand, and on the other - you don't want to listen, you believe you know better.  This was exactly what caused the problem. May be later you will see yourself as LII but will blame me again for something I did not do in fact.

[Ольга]

carina:.... I have no problems understanding people. I have a problem understanding the ethical problems with people. I understand people, I completely understand your points. [/quote]
 
How does it make you ethical type? What is the difference between understanding people and ethical problems exactly? What is it you understand - information? That is logic.

[Mudjumps]

Firstly I think you want to have some space to think for yourself right. Being told how things are when you can't see the same reasoning doesn't help. I noticed you mentioned on WSS that your dad is LSI and that you don't really get on. I'd suggest that the trouble you're having with Olga's approach (you feel that logical rules are being forced on you) is  that it might seem quite close to LSI behaviour (remember Olga is Se creative). I watched your last video and I remember you saying "some people are too aggressive". You don't have to answer obviously but do you mean your Dad? I have an LSI dad and I find him far too controlling. As a result I tend to think very carefully before excepting other people's logic and sort of see ti as a potential means of manipulation... I was not as quick to get to LII as Olga but I have no problem in typing you LII Carrina .. I can see you are a smart person and your interest in science alone should be a big hint of being a researcher. Maybe have more of a think about things. If you come to realise that you are not SEE or have some questions you are very welcome to come back...

[Mudjumps]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9_Novvwzpto Nigella Lawson SEE

[carrina]

Firstly I think you want to have some space to think for yourself right.I have to apply the theory to real life to see if it fits. I don't spontaneously remember everything I think do and say Being told how things are when you can't see the same reasoning doesn't help. I can place myself in this position and see if it is natural, it is not. I don't want to keep going back and forth over and over on the same thing. I noticed you mentioned on WSS that your dad is LSI and that you don't really get on. I'd suggest that the trouble you're having with Olga's approach (you feel that logical rules are being forced on you) is  that it might seem quite close to LSI behaviour (remember Olga is Se creative)I am not finding olga as aggressive. I watched your last video and I remember you saying "some people are too aggressive". You don't have to answer obviously but do you mean your Dad? I have an LSI dad and I find him far too controlling. yes, I mean my dad, and he's not aggressive, he is abusive and a slightly phycopathic individual. that situation is clearly different. As a result I tend to think very carefully before excepting other people's logic and sort of see ti as a potential means of manipulation... I was not as quick to get to LII as Olga but I have no problem in typing you LII Carrina .. I can see you are a smart person and your interest in science My interest in science is SOCIAL CHANGE. I tried to explain that a billion times. alone should be a big hint of being a researcherI failed my chemistry class, Logician still? . Maybe have more of a think about things. If you come to realise that you are not SEE or have some questions you are very welcome to come back...I may very well not be SEE, but I already know for sure that I am not an LII. I am going to continue to type myself until I am comfortable with a typing. I'm not going to sit here everyday begging someone to understand me so that they can help me go no where with my progress.

[carrina]

carina:.... I have no problems understanding people. I have a problem understanding the ethical problems with people. I understand people, I completely understand your points.

How does it make you ethical type? What is the difference between understanding people and ethical problems exactly? What is it you understand - information? That is logic.
[/quote]
this specifically doesn't make me an ethical type. what makes me an ethical type is that I am motivated toward social change, motivated by my need to make my relationships go smoothly, my desire to effect positive social change, as I have stated about a thousand times by now.

[carrina]

My biggest issue is this. Ti is one of my least favorite things. I am not a Ti lead. I will not waste my time entertaing this any more. I am going to blow up if you keep trying to push that as a fact when I know it isn't. I would sooner say that I am Ti POLR then Ti lead. I am baffled..

[Ольга]

Carrina, you are very safe blow up here.  But of course it is not that I would want you to do. However, after the blow up you may feel better and change you mind at least about something.
We still here and help you to understand at least something about your type.

I think you mixing up blocks Ego and Superego in the model A of LII. I mean you put much more weight on Superego functions Fi+ Se. In socionics we call it  a mask or a persona. You see clearly these functions in yourself and they seem more important to you then Ego block functions. Could it be this way?

People very often do not realise their own lead function because it is sooo natural like breathing. People just do not pay attention to it but they better see their creative or role function. Please, consider this possibility. LII has as Ego - thinking but thinking is so natural to him, that he hardly consciously register that he is constantly thinking about something. It is also very natural to analyse the information but this quality of analysis is also very intrinsic to him. To the degree that what he does not see - has got no meaning attached.

You  did not answer all the questions I asked which is a shame as it could have helped you a lot for understanding yourself and you type. But I am aware that we are in the open forum.

Ti-types do not have to study well - they can go straight into practice and just rely on their natural qualities. LIIs can fail exam.  My husband LII could not understand the question and start panicking - he was led from exams - fail!

If you want to be comfortable with typing - you may feel comfortable but it does not mean that the result will be true. However if you consider that we do psycho- analysis, then it is the relationship with psychoanalyst which can be difficult at times. I can understand that you may be annoyed with me but Malcolm did not say any wrong word to you. I would suggest try  and listen to him.